How to use raiding to crush the spirit of your child. (explicit)
I am just going to get right into it, because right now I have no patience for my ability to talk about something like cute kitties or walking my dogs. (Although walking kitties would be cute..)
Anyway, Leala came home for lunch and told me to listen to the new Rawrcast episode, which is hosted by our good friends Stomp and Haf. We have met them in real life and EVERYTHING. I even drank beers at their house, and killed aliens on the TV with them. But, they are raiders. Having hard-core raider friends is like having a friend that doesn’t believe what you do about religion or politics…you just don’t bring it up.
Now, before anyone says anything, of all people Stomp and Haf should be able to take a little criticism. (I’m actually criticizing the listener more.) Not me, though, I usually just get pissed and ban people. Here is the episode. They do a great show, but listen to the part about giving advice to a listener on how to get the 11 year old into raiding. That’s right, mother fucking 11.
1) An 11 year old should not be playing WoW, period. Granted, playing WITH your 11 old is much better, but we all know that kid will get on while Mommy and Daddy are gone. And we all know that a raider in a raid is VERY UNLIKELY to go check up on lil Billy when he’s in the other room, talking to a dirty old man. That’s right, 11 year olds can get into a lot of trouble online. ESPECIALLY IN A VIDEO GAME.
2) Teaching him to learn his class and to know his role are the sure-fire way to make him be the type to say “LEARN YOUR CLASS” and “KNOW YOUR ROLE.” That’s right, he will be 13 years old and while other kids are out climbing trees and looking at girls, he will be yelling at people on Vent. Don’t be confused, writer-inner, and think that your job-of-a-hobby is going to be able to be sat through by an 11 year old.
3) When suggesting that the kid should be punished or that he should be forced to role another class, I about popped my head off just so I could scrub out my brain. Granted, Haf and Stomp joke in a lot of the same way we do, meaning that they just spurt shit out and are VERY REAL about it, but they would have to answer how much of these comments were serious. They did actually give indication that these comments were serious. Even then, since I know them, I know that they were just going with the flow. We all do that sometimes.
4) Why does the kid want to go to instances? Think for a second. Why the fuck would an 11 year old want to go to an instance?
Think hard.
What are Mommy and Daddy doing 6 hours a night?
Think.
The 11 year old wanted to go to instances, Stomp’s writer-inner-listener-person BECAUSE HE’S FUCKING 11. When I was 11 I pretended to build stuff like my Dad. He would even show us how to pour concrete, or how to hold a hammer. We looked up to him. But, at least we were outside once in a while.
5) The “huntard” and “jacktard” comments: PLEASE, stop with this. I am a friend to many disabled players, many disabled people. In fact, I know some VERY WELL. Why is it ok to make fun of one disability but not another? I am not some sensitive hippy that’s asking for compassion…I am asking older players like us, Stomp and Haf and the listener to USE YOUR HEAD. Teaching your child that you consider him a jacktard noob because he’s FUCKING 11 AND HIT THE WRONG FUCKING BUTTON is going to ensure one thing….ONE THING: That he will BE the guy calling other players “jacktard.” No, for the record, I am not saying that Stomp and Haf suggested that the listener call his child a huntard. But, if Mommy and Daddy say it while they are teaching the tot TO HOLD FUCKING AGGRO, it is more than likely going to be in his vocabulary VERY SOON.
Listen, you want to play with your kid? Go get a fucking kids game and break away from your raid for one single night. Play Wizard 101, Puzzle Pirates, Free Realms...all great games for adults AND kids. Shit, never mind, WOW is a kids game! THEY ALL ARE.
When did some of us players get to the point that not only do we look at raiding like a JOB but we try to teach our kids that the punishment for FUCKING UP AN INSTANCE is to READ ABOUT RAIDING? You mean to tell me that many raiders would consider it perfectly normal and good to try to teach your 11 year old about MIN/MAXXING (or whatever the hell it’s called) or about maintaining DPS? That shit bores most adults, why in the world would any adult think that it wouldn’t just become the kids new home-work, to be feared as a chore and not as a fun opportunity to PLAY A VIDEOGAME WITH MOM AND DAD, A GAME SET IN A FANTASY WORLD OF MAKE-FUCKING-BELIEVE?
I love cursing.
I get it, I do. I get it, Stomps listener. You don’t want to have your kid fucking up and embarrassing you while he wears your guild name. That’s cool. Next, he’ll be kissing guys and listening to Celine Dion. After all, this new “hard-core” raider idea set is, essentially, the “conservative movement” of …of what? Of fucking MAKE BELIEVE WORLDS?!?
I love capitalizing.
Seriously, d-bags like Limp Bisquik LITERALLY use the term “bleeding hearts” (he used it on this very blog) to describe the “other side” of raiding. Seriously.. some of them actually think that hard-core-know-your-role-play-for-6-hours-straight gaming is not only the PROPER way to do it, but see it as some kind of appropriate way to EXIST IN A FUCKING MAKE BELIEVE WORLD FILLED WITH ORCS AND FAIRIES. Not only that, but d-bags like him think that the entire world should not only be raiding, but raiding in WoW. WHILE they make fun of it. WHILE they pay the sub. WHILE there are about 6000000000 other games out there that run better, look better and have a million other basic things that WoW does not have like, you know, guild levels and housing. The great thing about WoW is that it is FUN. When did it become Jesus Camp?
Soon, we will have an entirely new generation of players that get bored as soon as they hear the first utterance of the first syllable in the name of the new MMO coming out. But, they will pay for it, play it in a rush to the highest level and then try to teach their kids that fucking messing up is what fucking retarded people do, because retarded people are all like GGUURR GGURRRRGG UURRRRRRR and drooling and who in the fuck wants to be like THAT?? DON’T BE A RETARD SON, PICK UP THE FUCKING AGGRO.
Seriously, I’m not that mad. But the caps are a nice effect.
Listener, why not try to teach your kid patience? Why not try to teach him to slow down, as he would in LIFE? Why not teach him that the game won’t be around forever, and neither will those glorious lower level’s before he becomes a bitter old burned out raider like so many of Mommy and Daddy’s friends? Why not teach him that he does NOT want to be playing these games in that way forever, or he will look back on his life as one big massive raid? Tell him that when he dies, there is no Heaven. Tell him that he will simply…stop. He will not be aware of it, but he will just no longer BE.
He will be dead, forever, and after a while no one will remember him. Then tell him that that day is coming, so he better take time out to smell the pixels.
I mean, shit, if we’re using scare tactics, might as well GET REALLLLLLY SCARY.
Beau
A DISCLAIMER: I know Stomp and Haf, they are great parents. I am just pointing most of my criticisms at anyone that would use such a gloriously fun activity as gaming as a chance to embarrass and scare your children. And NO, I am not saying that HAF and Stomp DO. They actually DO NOT.
A-fucking-men. I’ve never raided, never will, don’t want to. Quite frankly, anyone who raids constantly and looks down on those who don’t is absolutely unaware of the pathetic irony of the situation.
It’s bad enough that we occasionally get stories of parents who neglect their kids while they raid the night away, but I can’t even IMAGINE when these 11 year olds are old enough to adopt their nredraging parent’s obnoxious “my way or the highway” mentality, and have it spill over into RL. Road rage, SCHOOL YARD rage, or anything like that will show up on the news as ‘14 year old beats over gaffe during PE class; claims “shithead didn’t know how to play his class’.”
And thanks for the constructive foul language. I enjoyed it.
Totally agree. An 11 year old has no place near WoW without a parent sitting right there by them and the chat window hidden. My little sister (12) will occasionally come over to visit and want to play. I let her play on a trial account and make a new character and do things with her outside of major cities. Parents getting their young children involved in raids are just going to teach their child that video gaming is “serious business” and not plain “fun” which they should be.
Sounds like the kid wants more time with mommy and daddy. Whether or not they’re going overboard with their play, their child is calling out to them for attention. The fact that their answer to that is to set the kid to work on a raid schedule is disheartening to say the least.
Just to clarify a bit. The question was about teaching the kid to play his class “properly” in a group so he can run instances. They weren’t expecting the 11 yr old to run a level 80 raid. I’ll explain my beef with it later when I get home.
That was a triple-A rant!
I tend to agree with a lot of it, but really, far, far more extreme parenting behavior is directed at sports, or even beauty pageants. I don’t think raiding is the issue here, let alone specifically WoW raiding.
Back when EQ was the big MMO and I grouped a lot more than I do nowadays, I knew quite a few people who played EQ with their kids, and some of those kids played pretty well too. I remember being a little concerned as the cleric on healing duties in a GoD instance, when our reliable regular tank said he’d forgotten he had to drive one of the kid’s friends home, but he’d only be gone twenty minutes and his young teenage daughter would run his warrior and tank for us in the meantime.
Well, she did, and she did a great job of it too, so that we were able to josh him about having her tank for him instead of us from now on. She wasn’t 11, though, and we weren’t raiding, and the crew we had back then was very relaxed and cool with all sorts of idiosyncracies.
On balance, I don’t think raiding is a particularly healthy family activity, although I can certainly think of a lot worse. The ‘tard stuff, though, is inexcusable in any context, and any activity that fosters that kind of attitude in an 11 year old is definitley concerning.
With Leila’s clafication my anecdote is actually more relevant than I thought it was. The key part is, we certainly didn’t expect the subbing daughter to play in any particular style, we were just hoping she’d be able to face the right way and hit taunt. And had it all gone pear-shaped we’d have just had a laugh and thanked her for giving it her best shot.
I’m not sure I see the problem. I say that as the parent of three reasonably well-adjusted kids. We all know that kids (and adults) are at least in part products of their environment. What’s it like in an MMO? Or enen online?
Think about it.
People are people, as aphoristic as that may sound. For better or worse. There are thugs, teachers, friends, rapists, truck drivers and good Samaritans all around us every day. In the real world we at least have some visual cues as to who is whom. Online, not so much.
It takes a special kind of someone not to care what company their child keeps. And unless you know, there are always risks. And it takes mo great intellect to figure that children emulate behavior they think of as interesting. So it’s no great mystery.
Oh, and I almost forgot. Fuck. There. I said it.
BURT! YOU, of all PEOPLE, do not CURSE YOUNG MAN!
By Burt’s BEARD! What’s next???? lol
I hear what you are saying, but, as usual, my rant makes almost no sense. My main beef with a raiding couple allowing an 11 year old online WITHOUT (and that’s the deal-breaker there, IF they are allowing him on there WITHOUT) supervision, is that he can and will more thank likely run across many things that they would never allow the child to see.
I am not claiming that “Oh no, the poor child might see someone say bitch..” I am talking about what happened to my old boss, for example. She let her kids and friends of her kids online without checking much of anything. I asked her if she had removed all cookies, scanned for spyware, all that..she had no idea what I was talking about. Later her credit cards got hit for a thou in charges from her PC. Turns out one of them used one of her cards and didn’t verify if the site was secure. Needless to say, a few people got her money, all because she had no idea what the PC was capable of, and by allowing her kids and their friends alone on the machine. This is not a lie, that story is absolutely true.
And I am not exaggerating here when I say that a parent that considers themselves a “hardcore raider” JUST MIGHT (and although I emphasis might, I know it happens a lot as well)not exactly check on anything their kid is doing while they raid. If they raid 6 hours a night, that kid is alone, with a PC, A LOT. The kid walks into the kitchen and sees Mom and Pop on the PC. He gets a drink, they continue to click on the mouse…he goes back to his room and to looking at dog porn. (I am not kidding, one of the kids involved with my friends problems was looking at ANIMAL PORN! lol)
Do you remember going over your first girlfriends house when you were 15, and going back into her bedroom? Remember that her mother used to check on you, and told the girl to “…leave your door open so I can check on you..”? Yet, despite all that, and having the mom in the next room, you managed to get the young girl half-naked? Now, imagine if the parents are stuck trying to maintain aggro on a boss…
Also, I just find it soooooo ironic that the listener seems (SEEMS I SAID hehe) to really be embarrassed about how his kid is performing…his 11 year old kid….in a video game…MADE FOR KIDS.
I just can’t wrap my head around it, I guess.
Beau
Oh yeh, guys…since it happens so much….
HER NAME IS SPELLED L E A L A!
It’s right there…on the blog, on the comments.
(For the record, half of my family still spell it wrong after 10 years.)
Beau
You write in a very comic-book fashion.
“Just HANG IN there, damsel in DISTRESS! I will be THERE THIS SECOND! Just need to CHANGE IN MY COSTUME, and then FLY over there. I can travel at the SPEED OF LIGHT and everything else.”
.
What the fuck? lol
Seriously, I know I am missing something here, but please explain it. I’m tired.
Beau
Raiding had nothing to do with the conversation in question. You might want to go back and listen to that again. The listener asked for our advice about how to help his son better understand the mechanics of his class… so that is the advice we gave. It wasn’t intended to turn into a “Spoiled Youth” scenario. If he wants for his son to understand how to better play his class and role within groups, he is entitled to teach this to his child.
You blanketed feeling about how raiders are tainting MMOs is very slanted. I like the raiding aspect of the game, but I also like many other aspects of the game, in addition to gaming with our son and teaching him the mechanics of itemization, dealing socially with other players, and how to use the game for good and not nubbish-evil.
How we treat and teach our son the game, and how the listener wants to teach his son, isn’t always the way that other parents are going to introduce gaming to their kids… but this is our experiences and our opinion.
Given the context of the actual question/answer, my above comment isn’t as on mark for this situation as I thought based on the article.
I got my nephew into WOW when he was 9. He’s played all the expansions and has max level characters. The one thing he missed out on a lot was doing instances if my son or I couldn’t be there to lead a group for him. At 11 himself, that did make him feel at like a kid – like a baby and that bothered him. He eventually got into a guild with a schoolmate whose parents had a guild and finally had people who would take him into instances and that was a big deal to him. Does this kid sit in front of the PC all day? Nope. He’s on the track and football teams and here’s a surprise, he’s also an honor roll student. You can be 11 and play WOW in moderation and still want to see whatever one else gets to see in the game.
He finally gave up on WOW when no one would let him in a Kara run at level 80. They told him go gear up to which he replied, how can I do that if no one will take me into end game instances? What he won’t do as an 11 year old is a rep grind to supplement his gear or the craft 10K widgets of BS until you can make the couple of good items, so that left him very little opportunity to advance. Guess what? This 11 year old decided he’d gone as far as he could go with WOW and asked me to subscribe his account. Done.
I raided with my son when he was pre-teens and I have to say that it was one of the happiest online gaming experiences I had. Back when it was 40 mans, watching my son have the mental agility and maturity to heal people – keep their asses alive when I’ve seen grown people suck at, was awesome! It ranked right up there with the first day I saw his avatar materialize along side mine in a virtual world. All things in their place and moderation are fine, even for an 11 year old. If I’d been playing enough to make it happen for my nephew I would have done it. It would have meant something to him. It’s no less meaningful than flying that first kite, sinking that first basketball with nothing but net, throwing that first touch-down pass. I don’t see a difference. MMOs have evolved to full on social, interactive and thought provoking hobbies.
My own means of raising my children has been to provide support, attention and a safe home. It has not been to instruct them in the mechanics of what to do or how to go about doing it. That’s my way. If one of my kids show an interst in gaming, as example (and two of the three have) I open the door and let them make their own decisions, not to coach them on what race/class/spec combo is the most effective, what weapon/armor loadouts are the most efficient and so on.
Like I know, anyway.
I grew up in a household that was too poor to afford a musical instrument when I was young, but was forced to take lessons after I turned 13. Sports were cheaper, so I was pushed into Little League and football as a young pencil-necked geek. There were no choices. And since I wasn’t as adept as the neighbors, I became a colossal disappointment to my parents.
Why would I want to do that to my kids? Gaming is like anything else in life. It can be a positive, self-affirming activity. Or it can be a soul-crushing, bitter source of angst and frustration. That will depend in part on the player and their style of play. Part will be the people sharing that journey, about whom I alluded in my first post.
In any case, I have misgivings about any child being given functionally unlimited, unsupervised time on the Internet.
Beau is using the term raiding to describe exactly what you were talking about. Going into an instance with a group of players and performing your “role”. 5 player or 10 player, level 40 or level 80 doesn’t matter. It’s all the same train of thought and activity.
The idea that made me want to literally explode when I heard this comes from the crazy ass notion that an 11 year old child needs to “perform” to some arbitrary standard in a video game. That a little kid who’s too young to even be in WoW legally (legal age for the game is 13) should be held to the same standards as an adult.
You talked about him learning his class, learning his role in an instance, learning not to pull things wrong, learning to CC. This is crap even some adults who play don’t give a shit to understand. They just wanna log in and do their thing.
And the specific question from the parent was “how do I get my kid to care about progressing his character?”. It was not the child asking how to do better. The child obviously doesn’t understand and doesn’t give a shit. As well he shouldn’t… he’s a child….. playing a game… My mind is literally boggling right now at this. I can’t even understand at all.
If someone wants to play WoW with their kid of that age or younger it should be 100% supervised and never in a group. I cannot believe that one would even suggest that the kid should go with a group of his own level and “lrn2play” that way. Have you guys ever been in a pug? I would never subject a little kid to that. A little kid should be nowhere near strangers on the internet. He should only ever be playing with family or close RL friends who can supervise. And those people should FUCKING RELAX and let the kid be a GOD DAMN kid. If its killing you to waste your time playing with a kid who may fuck up a pull everyone once in a while you need to get your head on straight. For the love of God you are talking about a child and a game.
Kids have a lot of lessons to learn about responsibility and what’s important in life. Keep them focused on doing well on homework and stuff like that. DO NOT teach them to get their priorities all outta whack like us adults do. We are adults. If we wanna take this game crap too seriously and play to much we can because we are of the age and maturity to make that decision.
Games are fun and we obviously all love them. If a kid wants to play one they should play one of an appropriate type and level for their age. Running instances in WoW is NOT appropriate for age 11 if people are gonna get bent outta shape because the kid isn’t “doing it right”. Go do something else. Go play something else. Go play FreeRealms for fucks sake. There’s no false pressure to perform in that game.
So from the question FROM A LISTENER, you come just this side of comparing the Rawrcast folks, your friends (“We have met them in real life and EVERYTHING.”) to Al Kaedi. Good thing you have many in-game friends.
Beau & Leala, do you guys even have kids? Every time Leala talks about this I just hear the lady from the simpsons “BUT THINK OF THE CHILDREN!”
I might be old now, but I’ve been playing these videogames since I was maybe 8 years old. By 11 understanding game mechanics wasn’t a big deal. By 12-13 my friends and siblings were playing with BASIC hoping to make our own games. I wasn’t gifted or anything, lots of kids were like this.
This rant kind of goes all over the place so I’m not sure how to reply. I can understand the talking to strangers online thing is scary and dangerous. Exposing them to foul language or attitudes though? Go to a public school playground. They’ve heard it all.
As far as teaching a child how to play the game, I see no harm. I don’t hand a kid a game of checkers and smile when he wears the board as a hat for 30 mins. But I know that might just be me.
I mean is this like those people who hate color by number books because it limits a child’s freedom of expression?
hmmm…well the 2.0 version is a lot less demonizing of Rawrcast which I’m sure wasn’t your purpose initially anyways.
No, no it’s not like those people who hate color by number. It’s not that broad of an issue. It’s a very specific, pointed issue: raiders that want their kids to perform better.
Beau
Actually, no I did not compare them to a terrorist group. I am not sure where you got that. Again, this is a very specific issue: raiders that want their children to perform better. Also, I have issue with adults using the word “retarded” in every day speech, being that using slang like that is what we are supposed to teach our children NOT to do.
Like I said, this is not a cloudy issue. I was very specific.
Beau
Back when my old guild in EQ2 was together. A lot of guildies kids played, most of there parents would disable eveything but party and guild chat. The one person I remember actually got mad when he brought his kid to a Dungeon and he failed really bad at healing, no one was angry but the guy just seemed to talk to his kid(Heard through vent) in a angry/irritated way. I dont think many people push there kids to be the best in MMOs but some people do go beyond what seems right.
First of all, we are basing the whole original argument on the listener’s question of “How do I make my Step Son care about progressing his toon?” From that question, what we take out of it is “How do I force my step son to be better at the game.” Which we then skew into an elitist mind set of “I am a Raider, and everyone should know their class and play like I do!” Since we have not heard anything from the listener, or the step son, we should not jump to conclusions. He may have just worded his question badly.
Here’s how the situation may have been:
The step takes an interest in the game. You assume it’s from watching the step father play, but it could of stemmed from friends/general media. After playing for a while, he takes interest in instancing. So the step dad decides to just run him through some instances at first. Then the son runs with a normal group. The step dad, probably looking over his shoulder, notices the son not playing “properly.” Which could mean any number of things. Rolling on cloth gear, leaving growl on, pulling random mobs, not staying with the group, leaving aspect of the cheetah on, etc. The dad tries to inform the step son “That staff with spell power on it is not for you.” But the son doesn’t understand and/or care. Listening to Wrawrcast, he hears stomp and Haf talk about their son and how they teach him about stats (their son loves math). So he asks them “How can I instruct my son like you do yours?”
Now, I can see how forcing a kid to follow “rules” in a GAME where there are “technically” no rules could make you feel angry. Like how it angers me to watch Moms parade their daughters through beauty pageants and yell at them for not “walking correctly” or not having enough “sas.” And really, it all depends on the specific situation, and how the step Dad dealt with it.
Lets look at a similar example. You have an 11 year old. He plays Basketball during recess one day and really likes it. He comes home and says “Dad, I want to play Basket ball.” So the dad puts up a Hoop in his backyard and buys the son a Basketball. When the Dad has time, he shoots hoops with his son, but sometimes the Son just plays on his own for fun. Soon after the son says “Dad, now I want to be on a team.” So the Dad signs him up for a summer league. So the first game comes along, the son is having a ton of fun, but not knowing the RULES of the game, he keeps scoring on his Own basket, runs with the ball, and keeps fouling people. What should the Dad do then? Should he take him off the team? Should he teach his son the Rules of the Game? Or should he just laugh it off and let the coach bench him every game because he wont follow the rules?
WoW = Basketball
You can play on your own, do what you want, when you want, and not worry about anyone other than yourself. And it is perfectly fine to play like that. But if you want to play with others, there are some rules you need to follow. The rules will vary depending on the seriousness of the situations. If you are just playing with a few friends, you can make up your own rules as long as everyone agrees. If you all like double dribbling, you can decide that it’s OK. If you all hate CC, and would rather AoE everything down, then go at it. But if you’re doing a raid, you can’t run with the ball.
My answer would be to talk to the Son. Ask him how much he wants to play with the team. Let him know if he wants to play with the team, there are some rules he has to follow. If he doesn’t want to follow those rules, then he can just play at home. And that it’s OK if he doesn’t want to play on the team.
Now if the Dad forced the Son to Practice everyday until he was the best basketball player on the team, and forced him to go to games, and not caring about what the son wanted to do, then I would be angry.